It is time to correct some misconceptions

[chileno]

Let me illustrate the size of the problem(these are quotes from dalbuc at pewterreport, so I want to make sure credit goes where credit is due):

"Rushing- 22% of our rush yards (6th overall) came from runs past 10 yards. When you get past that point the line ain't doing anything (by and large) so there are a ton of yards they aren't on the hook for helping us get. On the flip side 29% of our rushes got dropped for no gain or a loss (that is 30th in the NFL). When a good back like Caddy gets drilled like that you hang that on the OL because it means he had no chance or he'd have gotten something. Frankly, ponder this- how many times did you think to yourself, "Wow, that is one of the best 1 yard runs I've seen" this year? Also ponder how many times you thought to yourself, "If that had been Pittman he would have lost a yard." I know the answer both times was a lot for me. In other words, a lot of what we did do they aren't there for and they caused our rushing attack to be a lot worse than it needed to be.

Pass Blocking - They ranked 25th in sacks allowed per pass play. Despite a better rushing attack and a lot of help from 2 and 3 TE sets to max protect the line still allowed a lot of sacks and was among the very worst in the league - the teams below us are mostly the very high draft pick types (HOU, SF, NYJ, CLE, BUF for example)."

"More: we played 7 games vs top 15 rushing defenses (CHI, WAS x2, CAR x2, MIA, NE) and 10 vs the bottom 14 (MIN, NYJ, DET, GB, BUF, NOx2, ATLx2, SF). In the 7 games vs top 15 defenses we were: 87 ypg (3.3 ypc). In the 11 games vs the bottom 14 we were: 119 ypg (4.4 ypc). Obviously good teams slow down the run but that 87 ypg and 3.3 ypc is less than the yardage allowed of ANY of the defenses we played AND less than the ypc allowed by any team this season. Keeping in midn that of the 4 "hurt" Caddy games 3 came vs the bad run defenses or these stats would skew even more. In other words, we were well below average when we played the best run defenses and if backs can run vs bad defenses then the easy answer is that vs the good defenses there was nowhere to run."

"The OL is clearly the weakest unit on the team and the one that would benefit most from a talent upgrade. We had the #1 defense, upgrading that side of the ball really isn't all that possible in relative terms or in terms of the value of using our top pick on it. We've got young AND productive talent at QB, RB, TE. That leaves OT, OG, C, FB, WR as spots to upgrade. FB, C and OG are waste of value in R1. Now we've got WR and OT. WR is a good value but the assumption is that Clayton will get right once he heals and then we're looking for a #3 eventual #2 type player and that isn't high value in R1. That leaves OT as really the one screaming need, right now, for an upgrade."
and to address your, "you won't get a guy that come in right away and play":

"The history of OT's in R1 is immediate impact, go back from 2005 until 1995 of the 35 R1 LOT's only 4 were not regular contributors their rookie year: Victor Roley, Jon Michaels, Andre Johnson and Trezelle Jenkins. Now, you have some (Kenyatta Walker) that played before they should but in general if you have a 88.5% "hit" rate of at least getting guys to play year 1 that is a good risk."

Our running game was even more pathetic than the numbers imply. The only play that we could actually execute well was that counter play to the left with Mahan pulling...predictable?...no way :rolleyes:

Then, there isn't any talent at LT in free agency(Backus is the best one assuming the Lions don't resign him). Even if there was, we don't have the money to sign top talent.

Fact is Tackle is one of the surest postions you can draft. Yatta has been bustish(because his play has improved substantially, but has by no means lived up to where we took him), however the exception doesn't make the rule.

If we get a LT, it solves everything. Getting a LT would allow us to move Davis to RG(he would own in the running game and his weakness is pass blocking would not be as noticeable since he wouldn't be going up against speedy DEs) where he can compete with Terry or even to RT so he can compete with Colmer(thought I don't think this is necessary because Colmer has progressed this year). This pick would also allow us to move Mahan back to Center where he played much better at last year than he did this year as a guard(the way he got his *** whipped was pathetic).

We have Cooper(who we picked in the third round mind you) and if we wanted another talented OLB we could take someone like Ernie Sims or Thomas Howard in the second. Fact is that taking an OLB would be a pick for the future and not as urgent a need as OT, so it would be way more logical reserve THAT pick for the second round.

We can find good CBs for our system in the third and second rounds(Barber...Kelly...Abraham), so taking one in the first in unthinkable.

So what am I trying to say...
I WANT AN OT. Eric Winston/Jonathan Scott/Winston Justice/Daryn Colledge...Welcome to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

[Greg in DC]

There were several highly cromulent points made there. I want an OT too, but I"m not sure about Eric Winston; he's a converted TE and I'm not sold on converted TEs at T. From most of the mocks that I've seen, Ferguson, McNeill & maybe Justice will be gone by then. I'm also not big on Jonathan Scott. Why? Look at Mike Williams, (the OT, not the WR) he was a first rounder from Texas and is about to quit football. Maybe I'm reaching but I'm not sold on the guy.

[UCFjayrod09]

I'm not sold on Eric Winston either, I hope that either Mcneill, Scott, or Justice drops to us. If none of them were available then maybe the bucs could think about looking at a different position.

[BearLandBucFan]

Let me illustrate the size of the problem(these are quotes from dalbuc at pewterreport, so I want to make sure credit goes where credit is due):

"Rushing- 22% of our rush yards (6th overall) came from runs past 10 yards. When you get past that point the line ain't doing anything (by and large) so there are a ton of yards they aren't on the hook for helping us get. On the flip side 29% of our rushes got dropped for no gain or a loss (that is 30th in the NFL). When a good back like Caddy gets drilled like that you hang that on the OL because it means he had no chance or he'd have gotten something. Frankly, ponder this- how many times did you think to yourself, "Wow, that is one of the best 1 yard runs I've seen" this year? Also ponder how many times you thought to yourself, "If that had been Pittman he would have lost a yard." I know the answer both times was a lot for me. In other words, a lot of what we did do they aren't there for and they caused our rushing attack to be a lot worse than it needed to be.

Pass Blocking - They ranked 25th in sacks allowed per pass play. Despite a better rushing attack and a lot of help from 2 and 3 TE sets to max protect the line still allowed a lot of sacks and was among the very worst in the league - the teams below us are mostly the very high draft pick types (HOU, SF, NYJ, CLE, BUF for example)."

"More: we played 7 games vs top 15 rushing defenses (CHI, WAS x2, CAR x2, MIA, NE) and 10 vs the bottom 14 (MIN, NYJ, DET, GB, BUF, NOx2, ATLx2, SF). In the 7 games vs top 15 defenses we were: 87 ypg (3.3 ypc). In the 11 games vs the bottom 14 we were: 119 ypg (4.4 ypc). Obviously good teams slow down the run but that 87 ypg and 3.3 ypc is less than the yardage allowed of ANY of the defenses we played AND less than the ypc allowed by any team this season. Keeping in midn that of the 4 "hurt" Caddy games 3 came vs the bad run defenses or these stats would skew even more. In other words, we were well below average when we played the best run defenses and if backs can run vs bad defenses then the easy answer is that vs the good defenses there was nowhere to run."

"The OL is clearly the weakest unit on the team and the one that would benefit most from a talent upgrade. We had the #1 defense, upgrading that side of the ball really isn't all that possible in relative terms or in terms of the value of using our top pick on it. We've got young AND productive talent at QB, RB, TE. That leaves OT, OG, C, FB, WR as spots to upgrade. FB, C and OG are waste of value in R1. Now we've got WR and OT. WR is a good value but the assumption is that Clayton will get right once he heals and then we're looking for a #3 eventual #2 type player and that isn't high value in R1. That leaves OT as really the one screaming need, right now, for an upgrade."
and to address your, "you won't get a guy that come in right away and play":

"The history of OT's in R1 is immediate impact, go back from 2005 until 1995 of the 35 R1 LOT's only 4 were not regular contributors their rookie year: Victor Roley, Jon Michaels, Andre Johnson and Trezelle Jenkins. Now, you have some (Kenyatta Walker) that played before they should but in general if you have a 88.5% "hit" rate of at least getting guys to play year 1 that is a good risk."

Our running game was even more pathetic than the numbers imply. The only play that we could actually execute well was that counter play to the left with Mahan pulling...predictable?...no way :rolleyes:

Then, there isn't any talent at LT in free agency(Backus is the best one assuming the Lions don't resign him). Even if there was, we don't have the money to sign top talent.

Fact is Tackle is one of the surest postions you can draft. Yatta has been bustish(because his play has improved substantially, but has by no means lived up to where we took him), however the exception doesn't make the rule.

If we get a LT, it solves everything. Getting a LT would allow us to move Davis to RG(he would own in the running game and his weakness is pass blocking would not be as noticeable since he wouldn't be going up against speedy DEs) where he can compete with Terry or even to RT so he can compete with Colmer(thought I don't think this is necessary because Colmer has progressed this year). This pick would also allow us to move Mahan back to Center where he played much better at last year than he did this year as a guard(the way he got his *** whipped was pathetic).

We have Cooper(who we picked in the third round mind you) and if we wanted another talented OLB we could take someone like Ernie Sims or Thomas Howard in the second. Fact is that taking an OLB would be a pick for the future and not as urgent a need as OT, so it would be way more logical reserve THAT pick for the second round.

We can find good CBs for our system in the third and second rounds(Barber...Kelly...Abraham), so taking one in the first in unthinkable.

So what am I trying to say...
I WANT AN OT. Eric Winston/Jonathan Scott/Winston Justice/Daryn Colledge...Welcome to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.


What you want or I want won't change what Gruden will have Allen draft. He won't draft a OT.

OT are a sure thing huh? Nothing is a sure thing when it comes to the draft.

Colmer and Davis will be our OT's next year with maybe a pick later on in the draft and/or vet to back them up.

Don't be surprised if Steussie get's another 1 year deal as well.

[Pewter Pride]

... Colmer has progressed this year...
Link?

[chileno]

There were several highly cromulent points made there. I want an OT too, but I"m not sure about Eric Winston; he's a converted TE and I'm not sold on converted TEs at T. From most of the mocks that I've seen, Ferguson, McNeill & maybe Justice will be gone by then. I'm also not big on Jonathan Scott. Why? Look at Mike Williams, (the OT, not the WR) he was a first rounder from Texas and is about to quit football. Maybe I'm reaching but I'm not sold on the guy.

I'm not sold on Eric Winston either, I hope that either Mcneill, Scott, or Justice drops to us. If none of them were available then maybe the bucs could think about looking at a different position.

If Eric Winston hadn't gotten hurt, he would arguably have been the first tackle picked this year. The advantage in TE to Tackle conversions is the superiority in athleticism which aids in matters such as pass blocking speedy DEs and reaching the second level effectively. While his injury was certainly substancial, in the later part of the year he showed that he was back to his old form. He will only get better as he is further removed from that injury, meaning that you will get even more than what you draft. He is an excellent athlete with great technique, who has a mean streak and is also very intelligent(he is working on his second degree).

While your point about Mike Williams is certainly true Greg, it bears little relevance in this instance. Mike Williams is a huge OT that was overweight coming out of college. He was able to cover up this deficiency in college since he went up against lesser competition, but in the pros it was exposed(forcing him to move to Guard in his most recent action). Jonathan Scott is a different case however. His size is prototypical 6'7, 315lbs and he is also a very intelligent player. He has great technique and has played in Texas O-lines that have consistently churned out great rushers(has been playing since his freshman year).

What you want or I want won't change what Gruden will have Allen draft. He won't draft a OT.

OT are a sure thing huh? Nothing is a sure thing when it comes to the draft.

Colmer and Davis will be our OT's next year with maybe a pick later on in the draft and/or vet to back them up.

Don't be surprised if Steussie get's another 1 year deal as well.

No **** that what I say won't change what he'll do. We debate points here in order to arrive at the most satisfactory solutions, not with the idea that they'll go straight to the top, but as interested fans.

Again...no ****. It is quite evident that nothing is certain when it comes to the draft, but history backs up my assertion that Tackle is one of the most secure positions you can draft. It is a matter of probability not of absolute certainty.

If you want Colmer and Davis as our starting Tackles you are insane. Colmer is arguably going to be a downgrade in performance when compared to Yatta until he gets adjusted. Don't expect Davis to get much better either. If you look at teams(Panthers and Houston) that have tried similar solutions of moving a Guard to Tackle, they are dealing with the same problem. This year the O-line was NOTHING to brag about, it was a notch better but still bad(this will also do nothing for the career life of Simms or Caddy). Implementing the changes that you suggest can only make it worse. But then again, we could always feel good about the fact that we drafted some excellent back ups :rolleyes:

O and Steussie...yeah.

Link?

It was in a Pewter Report story, so I can't provide you a link or more info than the one that I've already given you.

[Confuzed Azn]

I like Colledge, but he is all pass-protect when it comes to skills. Not much of a mean streak or a road grater type of runblocker. I am worried about Marcus McNeil because of his condition, Spinal Stenosis. "Spinal stenosis is narrowing of the spinal canal that occurs when excessive growth of bone and/or tissue reduces the size of the openings in the spinal bones. This narrowing can squeeze and irritate the nerve roots that branch out from the spinal cord, or it can squeeze and irritate the spinal cord, itself. This may cause pain, numbness, or weakness, most often in the legs, feet, and buttocks. Severe disability is not common." That's off of WebMD. Although we can take a chance on him, because I have a hunch he'll drop to the 3rd-4th round range because of his condition and it might be worth the risk then.

[BearLandBucFan]

If Eric Winston hadn't gotten hurt, he would arguably have been the first tackle picked this year. The advantage in TE to Tackle conversions is the superiority in athleticism which aids in matters such as pass blocking speedy DEs and reaching the second level effectively. While his injury was certainly substancial, in the later part of the year he showed that he was back to his old form. He will only get better as he is further removed from that injury, meaning that you will get even more than what you draft. He is an excellent athlete with great technique, who has a mean streak and is also very intelligent(he is working on his second degree).

While your point about Mike Williams is certainly true Greg, it bears little relevance in this instance. Mike Williams is a huge OT that was overweight coming out of college. He was able to cover up this deficiency in college since he went up against lesser competition, but in the pros it was exposed(forcing him to move to Guard in his most recent action). Jonathan Scott is a different case however. His size is prototypical 6'7, 315lbs and he is also a very intelligent player. He has great technique and has played in Texas O-lines that have consistently churned out great rushers(has been playing since his freshman year).



No **** that what I say won't change what he'll do. We debate points here in order to arrive at the most satisfactory solutions, not with the idea that they'll go straight to the top, but as interested fans.

Again...no ****. It is quite evident that nothing is certain when it comes to the draft, but history backs up my assertion that Tackle is one of the most secure positions you can draft. It is a matter of probability not of absolute certainty.

If you want Colmer and Davis as our starting Tackles you are insane. Colmer is arguably going to be a downgrade in performance when compared to Yatta until he gets adjusted. Don't expect Davis to get much better either. If you look at teams(Panthers and Houston) that have tried similar solutions of moving a Guard to Tackle, they are dealing with the same problem. This year the O-line was NOTHING to brag about, it was a notch better but still bad(this will also do nothing for the career life of Simms or Caddy). Implementing the changes that you suggest can only make it worse. But then again, we could always feel good about the fact that we drafted some excellent back ups :rolleyes:

O and Steussie...yeah.



It was in a Pewter Report story, so I can't provide you a link or more info than the one that I've already given you.



You can debate on who YOU'd like to see us draft all you want. Shoot, why not go all out fantasy and say One of the top 10 players fall to us, after all it did the last couple of seasons with Jackson and Rodgers.

The point is we "pretend" to much.

This isn't fantasy football nor Madden. Gruden, if history is proof, won't draft an OT at #23 unless the player is an absolute phenom and no other players on his board for that spot are left.


Do I think Colmer and Davis can cut it? Don't know as they have never lined up together. OT are the most sure thing in the first round huh? Not for our team they haven't been.

I definitely think we should address the OT position as well as Center. However, I just simply don't see it happening with a high round pick (1st or 2nd).


Again, I see Steaussie as a possibility coming back, as he'll be cheap and Gruden seems to like him.

After he was released June 1, how many of you would have said he'd be back?

The answer would be very close to 0%.

[Confuzed Azn]

After he was released June 1, how many of you would have said he'd be back?

The answer would be very close to 0%.

Sounds about right... :rolleyes:
I do agree with Chileno that Davis just isn't cut out to play OT, I'd like to see us pick up a guy from FA, someone like Kevin Shaffer, to play LT and move Mahan to center and Davis to RG, their ideal positions. Then watch Colmer's progress and resign Steussie to a one year vet min. deal and Yatta to a one year deal for insurance and depth. Draft-wise? I don't know, IF a player does drop (ex. Justice), then why not? but it's unlikely. In Allen I trust...

[chileno]

You can debate on who YOU'd like to see us draft all you want. Shoot, why not go all out fantasy and say One of the top 10 players fall to us, after all it did the last couple of seasons with Jackson and Rodgers.

The point is we "pretend" to much.

This isn't fantasy football nor Madden. Gruden, if history is proof, won't draft an OT at #23 unless the player is an absolute phenom and no other players on his board for that spot are left.


Do I think Colmer and Davis can cut it? Don't know as they have never lined up together. OT are the most sure thing in the first round huh? Not for our team they haven't been.

I definitely think we should address the OT position as well as Center. However, I just simply don't see it happening with a high round pick (1st or 2nd).


Again, I see Steaussie as a possibility coming back, as he'll be cheap and Gruden seems to like him.

After he was released June 1, how many of you would have said he'd be back?

The answer would be very close to 0%.

The difference in between a realistic argument and a fantasy football argument is logic which relies on factual evidence. Fact is(as I've proven) our line blows, Fact is(as I've proven) Tackle is one of the surest positions you can draft, Fact is this is one of the best Tackle classes in years. O and Allen didn't draft Yatta.

Gruden recognizes the importance of having a good line and has said in numerous occasions that he'd like to bring in Pro Bowlers, but...1)they aren't available and 2) we can't afford them. So he recognizes the need to bring TOP talent(not 3rd round or lower Tackles) and if you look at his philosophy on playing younger players it has changed.

Let me make sure I am grasping your argument. You are opposed to drafting a Tackle high, because we aren't sure if his game will translate to the pros and he may be a bust. But you are willing to line up a 1st year 3rd round pick, who has never played a snap in the regular season at a position that isn't even his natural one(he was a LT in college), because his game may translate. Are you familiar with double standards at all?

If anything, you have the wrong bias because you are willing to be optimistic on the third round pick and pessimistic on the first round pick.

Mind you, Steussie was not EVER going to be back. He was only back because they needed bodies in TC. Meaning that bringing him back was never a planned event, it was a desperate measure where he was the best available thing.

[All_da_way]

Drafting a OT/DT/DE?LB/CB/OG are a higher priority.

There are no receviers in this draft that excite me. If I had to choose I would take some of the TE's over the receivers.

Pretty weak receiver class.

[doobiedoright]

Ddi anybody see the LT from lsu in the east west game? also as far as recivers would not mind marshal UCF in the 3 or 4th round.

[UCFjayrod09]

Ddi anybody see the LT from lsu in the east west game? also as far as recivers would not mind marshal UCF in the 3 or 4th round.
We could probably get marshall in the 5th round, he has all the tools to be good in the NFL but doesn't have the exposure to get alot of interest. After all before this year UCF was pretty bad at football but all you have to do is look at his performance in the Hawaii bowl and the East vs West game to know the skill is there.