Calvin Johnson, Shoe In?

[PirateAttack]

The entire football world has the Bucs pegged to take Johnson. If this guy ends up like another Michael Clayton (which I don't think he will), I'm going to be extremely disappointed.

In all honesty, if we take Calvin Johnson at #4 overall, Clayton seems like a bust to me. Then again, Hilliard and Galloway are up there in age. If Clayton can't beat out Hilliard for the slot, that former 1st rounder needs to be re-evaluated.

To think.. we could have had Steven Jackson or someone way better than Clayton.

As much as I want the Bucs to overwhelmingly draft Defense in this draft, I really hope Calvin Johnson isn't a dud. This guy should be our replacement for Galloway possibly after next year if not this year.

[BucFan LHT]

If we do end up drafting CJ. I think you'll see Clayton improve because teams will be double teaming CJ like theres no tomorrow.

[dawgland]

If we do end up drafting CJ. I think you'll see Clayton improve because teams will be double teaming CJ like theres no tomorrow.
teams weren't even doubling clayton last year

[FBaller]

Clayton was a stud the year we drafted him... The fact that they failed coaching him can't really be blamed on the draft. He arguably should have been offensive rookie of the year.

Let's just hope if we draft Johnson that they don't someone mess him up too.

[Gooshdawg]

Clayton was a stud the year we drafted him... The fact that they failed coaching him can't really be blamed on the draft. He arguably should have been offensive rookie of the year.

Let's just hope if we draft Johnson that they don't someone mess him up too.

I dont think it was failed coaching. I disagree on the RoY too.

[UMiamiBucFan]

I dont think it was failed coaching. I disagree on the RoY too.
Curiously, why do you disagree with ROY? Do you think Roethlisberger really deserved? He got it because he didn't lose a game, but it wasn't really Roethlisberger leading them to victories.

[solar]

Getting CJ would be a great addition, a first year starter for sure, but I really doubt he will be a Buc, I just don't see Cleveland passing on him.

[Dy-nasty D]

I think Clayton just got banged up with nagging injuries and that has taken away the little speed that he had.

CJ and Galloway would be some major speed.

I'd still rather have Joe Thomas.

[Gooshdawg]

Curiously, why do you disagree with ROY? Do you think Roethlisberger really deserved? He got it because he didn't lose a game, but it wasn't really Roethlisberger leading them to victories.

I think Ben played well at the toughest position in sports. You guys know as well as I do a quarterback doesnt always win games for you but he can easily lose them. You guys do have a vested interest and I understand your train of thought. That is just my unbiased opinion.

[UMiamiBucFan]

I think Ben played well at the toughest position in sports. You guys know as well as I do a quarterback doesnt always win games for you but he can easily lose them. You guys do have a vested interest and I understand your train of thought. That is just my unbiased opinion.
Fair enough. I thought in terms of stats (other than wins or losses), Clayton had the better year. But having a rookie QB not lose a single start is certainly a solid case for it.

[TomatoVSC]

Clayton is one of only 6 active wide receivers to have over 1000 yards receiving during their rookie campaign. Quite an accomplishment.

That said....Clayton sucks.

[#1GrudenFan]

Clayton is one of only 6 active wide receivers to have over 1000 yards receiving during their rookie campaign. Quite an accomplishment.

That said....Clayton sucks.

I wouldn't say he sucks. He had a better year last year than the year before. He was wide open all day in the pittsburgh game, no one was able to get him the ball. I'm not ready to label him a bust yet.

[TomatoVSC]

I wouldn't say he sucks. He had a better year last year than the year before. He was wide open all day in the pittsburgh game, no one was able to get him the ball. I'm not ready to label him a bust yet.

A third year 15th overall pick should be able to make plays and actually catch the ball. I'm not quite ready to label him a bust yet either, but if next year he doesn't show improvement....stamp him and ship him out.

[UMiamiBucFan]

I refuse to judge any of our players until we have a competent QB.

[Greg in DC]

I refuse to judge any of our players until we have a competent QB.


Or O-Line.

[Jakopo]

What some people are overlooking is that two receivers like Galloway and CJ would make the OL better (and the QB better). Defenses would have to scheme much differently with two big play threats on the field than with just Galloway.

I hope the Bucs go with CJ if he is there, but certainly wouldn't be too disappointed if they had to settle with Thomas.

[Buccs99]

Gotta go with what he said about the offensive line. Simms sitting in a pocket with no time to throw the ball is not getting his full ability out of him. If he has some more time, I think he could make something happen. Get rid of that ****ing 3 step drop also.

[UMiamiBucFan]

Gotta go with what he said about the offensive line. Simms sitting in a pocket with no time to throw the ball is not getting his full ability out of him. If he has some more time, I think he could make something happen. Get rid of that ****ing 3 step drop also.
Wouldn't hurt if Simms' throwing motion didn't take 3 seconds...

[PirateAttack]

I refuse to judge any of our players until we have a competent QB.
Or O-Line.
Very true. I'm just wondering that if wer do draft CJ, what does that say about how the Bucs front office feels about Clayton?

I'm not saying that Clayton can't be a good WR in the NFL, I'm saying that he has to be consistent. He's had too many injuries thus far.

[Selmon63]

I just heard that Calvin Johnson can bend steel with his little finger.

[UMiamiBucFan]

Very true. I'm just wondering that if wer do draft CJ, what does that say about how the Bucs front office feels about Clayton?

I'm not saying that Clayton can't be a good WR in the NFL, I'm saying that he has to be consistent. He's had too many injuries thus far.
I think the Bucs FO still believes in him. If they draft CJ, its because of how good of a prospect he is and not a reflection of Clayton. It would be because 6'5" 239lb WRs running 4.3s with outstanding body control and good hands don't come around very often. Besides, Clayton is a flanker, and CJ's speed and size combination would make him a great split end. If the Bucs don't draft CJ, we already have a slower version of him in Maurice Stovall.

[PirateAttack]

Considering the draft, I don't see Oakland, Detroit, or Cleveland taking a WR. Some people speculate that Cleveland will take him, but I just don't see it happening.

Unless a team trades up to get CJ in the top 3, he'll be a Buc. Personally, I would love for us to find a way to make Amobi Okoye (sp) a Buc. He could be there in the 2nd round, but that is also unlikely.

There is the possibility of us trading both of our 2nd round picks to acquire another 1st rounder, but that might not be worth it either.

[UMiamiBucFan]

While I like to avoid draft guarantees (see Rodgers, Aaron), I think Okoye is a top 20 pick, no less. Only shot at getting him is by trading down.


Also, as far as Oakland, Detroit, or Cleveland taking CJ, I wouldn't be shocked. He is undeniably the best player in this draft and any of those teams could decide to take the BPA instead of what they need. Personally, I think Detroit has a high probability.

[nensey_zy]

Maybe, but Detroit may end up trading down so they can take Okoye. Marinelli made Sapp a monster, and he could do the same with Okoye.

[BigPictureBuc]

There is absolutely no way that Detroit takes another WR in the first round.

Mike Williams in '05, Roy Williams in '04, Charles Rogers in '03.

There's a reason why Detroit is picking 2nd in the draft. . . :grinno:

[PirateAttack]

There is absolutely no way that Detroit takes another WR in the first round.

Mike Williams in '05, Roy Williams in '04, Charles Rogers in '03.

There's a reason why Detroit is picking 2nd in the draft. . . :grinno:
Exactly why I don't think they'll take a WR. The real question is whether or not they are going to trade down or keep the high pick and take a QB or OL.

If Detroit trades down, whoever traded for their position might take CJ.

[UMiamiBucFan]

There is absolutely no way that Detroit takes another WR in the first round.

Mike Williams in '05, Roy Williams in '04, Charles Rogers in '03.

There's a reason why Detroit is picking 2nd in the draft. . . :grinno:
But of those, only 1 panned out. If they took Mike Williams knowing that Roy Williams was solid and Rogers could still turn out ok, that means they could still decide to take another one after knowing that Rogers and Mike Williams were busts.

[ABucInVickland]

Clayton was a stud the year we drafted him... The fact that they failed coaching him can't really be blamed on the draft. He arguably should have been offensive rookie of the year.

Let's just hope if we draft Johnson that they don't someone mess him up too.

Ohhh horse ****... Clayton has had a series of injuries over two seasons and when he was playing he was having problems holding onto the ball. The failed coaching theory is a weak opinion and certainly not something you can prove as FACT, as you state. Maybe you should bother to look up who the receivers coach is and check his credentials.

No way I see Calvin Johnson as a lock here. Too many things can happen in the first 3 picks. All though the liklihood is the Bucs will have a good shot at him.

[Buccs99]

Wouldn't hurt if Simms' throwing motion didn't take 3 seconds...

But if Simms is our starting quarterback, shouldnt the coach fix his attack a bit different to suit the qb ? Notice you didnt see the three step drop much at all when Grad and Rattay took over.

[John Doe]

In all honesty, if we take Calvin Johnson at #4 overall, Clayton seems like a bust to me.
Picking Calvin Johnson 4th overall will be because he is the best player available. It's our luck that it also happens to be at a position of need.

Clayton is already a bust. The last two seasons he has recorded less than 400 yards receiving as a starter. In the last 26 games he has played, he has 1 touchdown catch. He has also averaged less than 12 yards per catch since his rookie season and hasn't had a 100 yard game since then either.

I don't know when you plan on considering him a bust, but you have to at least expect a little more from a 15th overall pick in the draft.

To think.. we could have had Steven Jackson or someone way better than Clayton.
Jackson only started to come on as a real force last season. His first two years in the league were only average at best. Whether or not he can continue to produce at a high level remains to be seen.

Clayton was a better prospect in 2004 and should have been picked higher than Jackson. He showed that his rookie year. Whatever has happened since then (whether it be coaching, injuries or just plain laziness) is what has ruined his pro career up to this point.

[PirateAttack]

You are wrong about Jackson. He began making noise around the NFL in his 2nd year and took over as the starter in his 3rd year. Most people didn't notice him until last year, but if you watch more closely you can see that in his 2nd year he produced a lot more which led him having such a great 3rd year.

My point about Jackson is that he's gotten better every year whereas Clayton has gotten worse each year. Even that is hard to say though because he hasn't had much playing time since his 1st year. Also he's been battling injuries that hamper his play, not just bumps and bruises like everyone else.

Also, there is still the possibility that Oakland might take CJ:

Raiders | Packers interested in Moss?
Wed, 28 Feb 2007 07:18:56 -0800

Steve Corkran, of the Contra Costa Times, reports the Green Bay Packers and Oakland Raiders have discussed a possible trade scenario involving WR Randy Moss, according to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. The Packers would be interested in landing Moss if he agrees to restructure his contract. Moss is scheduled to earn a base salary of $9.75 million next season and $11.25 million in 2008, the final year of the eight-year, $75 million contract he signed with the Minnesota Vikings. The Raiders would free up roughly $8 million in cap room for 2007 should they trade Moss, even though they would absorb the remaining $4.04 million of Moss' signing bonus yet unaccounted for.

[UMiamiBucFan]

But if Simms is our starting quarterback, shouldnt the coach fix his attack a bit different to suit the qb ? Notice you didnt see the three step drop much at all when Grad and Rattay took over.
It doesn't matter much how deep the drop is. Simms has the slowest throwing motion in the NFL. He got his passes batted on 5 and 7 step drops. Its just that defensive linemen were coached specifically to jump as soon as they noticed a 3 step drop against Simms. So all 3 step drops got knocked down, but 5s and 7s were too.

[fsuklee]

Maybe, but Detroit may end up trading down so they can take Okoye. Marinelli made Sapp a monster, and he could do the same with Okoye.

Sapp made Sapp a monster. He was a special player. Rod did not turn McFarland and Culpepper into studs.

[LoveMuffin]

I have to admit that I was really against drafting offense in the 1st round this year. I felt that we needed D-Line more than anything. But CJ may be just too damn good to pass up if he's still there at #4.

I'm imagining at 2 TE package with Galloway and CJ on the outside running Go routes and Alex Smith running a skinny post down the middle. That would be pretty tough for a defense to deal with. Especially if Becht stays in to block and mabye Pittman runs some delay underneath route (just incase there's a blitz).
Of course the reality is that JG will probably call 18 max protect WR screens per game and CJ will be catching passes 5 yards behind the line and averaging 6 YPC. :rolleyes:


As for his effect on Clayton, this might be Galloway's last year so CJ would take the #1 spot. Clayton's hold on the #2 spot is in danger all on it's own.

[John Doe]

You are wrong about Jackson. He began making noise around the NFL in his 2nd year and took over as the starter in his 3rd year. Most people didn't notice him until last year, but if you watch more closely you can see that in his 2nd year he produced a lot more which led him having such a great 3rd year.
Sure, Jackson was making some noise around the league after his second season. I'm not saying he wasn't. You probably wouldn't be able to find many people calling him one of the top 10 backs in the league at the time though. It's not since last year that he has elevated himself to that status.

My point about Jackson is that he's gotten better every year whereas Clayton has gotten worse each year. Even that is hard to say though because he hasn't had much playing time since his 1st year. Also he's been battling injuries that hamper his play, not just bumps and bruises like everyone else.
Clayton came into the league as a great prospect and hit the ground running. He had a great rookie year and would probably still be producing like that if it weren't for all of the other things that have derailed his career (coaching, injuries, laziness, etc). It's doubtful that Clayton will ever regain the form he had his rookie year since it's now been two seasons that he hasn't been able to get it together.

Jackson worked hard to get to the point he is at now. He's done exactly what he was told, stayed healthy and in shape and never complained about sharing time with Marshal Faulk. In the end, he is the one making headlines while Clayton is barely holding onto his job. Clayton came into the league as the better prospect, but Jackson was the one that developed into a better pro (which nobody would have predicted would happen two years ago).

[UMiamiBucFan]

I have to admit that I was really against drafting offense in the 1st round this year. I felt that we needed D-Line more than anything. But CJ may be just too damn good to pass up if he's still there at #4.
Not you too Muffin... :(

[BucitObones]

There are two other guys available if we don't get CJ. CJ had the slowest foot speed compared to these guys:
1. Yamon Figurs Kansas State 4.30
2. Jason Hill Washington State 4.32
3. Calvin Johnson Georgia Tech 4.35

[LoveMuffin]

Sorry UMBF. :o

There are two other guys available if we don't get CJ. CJ had the slowest foot speed compared to these guys:
1. Yamon Figurs Kansas State 4.30
2. Jason Hill Washington State 4.32
3. Calvin Johnson Georgia Tech 4.35

Figurs is 5'11, 175 and has 74 career catches.
Hill is 6'0, 210 and 104 catches.
CJ is 6'4, 240 and is a total freak of nature.

[UMiamiBucFan]

Its okay. I'm not going to be upset if we get CJ, I just feel like we could turn that pick into many players instead of just one. There are 22 starting positions, and we could use an upgrade at S (x2), CB, WLB, DE (x2), UT, LT, C, and QB.

I don't support passing on CJ to reach for a need position (like Okoye at #4). However, I will continue to support trading down for extra picks. I actually hope that CJ is available because I think some teams will make some monster offers to trade up for him. And why would they trade with us instead of the Browns or Lions? Because they aren't considered serious threats to take him and why trade up higher than you have to? CJ at #4 is a steal and we could easily squeeze two more first day picks (either this year or next) and still stay in the top 10.

[blood4theBUCS]

:cool: CJ is a solid all around athlete and during the combine has proven to be probably the best. but the ? still remains what will suit the bucs best? I think he would fit in nicely. but WR is not really our PROBLEM, what about DB???? LaRon Landry looks a lot like our fav Lynch in the old days!!! You don't see a lot of FS or SS getting 300 tackles and 20+ sacks. just think about it.

Bring back some smack you in the ******* mouth football!!!

[blood4theBUCS]

AMEN !!!!!!!!!Its okay. I'm not going to be upset if we get CJ, I just feel like we could turn that pick into many players instead of just one. There are 22 starting positions, and we could use an upgrade at S (x2), CB, WLB, DE (x2), UT, LT, C, and QB.

I don't support passing on CJ to reach for a need position (like Okoye at #4). However, I will continue to support trading down for extra picks. I actually hope that CJ is available because I think some teams will make some monster offers to trade up for him. And why would they trade with us instead of the Browns or Lions? Because they aren't considered serious threats to take him and why trade up higher than you have to? CJ at #4 is a steal and we could easily squeeze two more first day picks (either this year or next) and still stay in the top 10.

[LoveMuffin]

Its okay. I'm not going to be upset if we get CJ, I just feel like we could turn that pick into many players instead of just one. There are 22 starting positions, and we could use an upgrade at S (x2), CB, WLB, DE (x2), UT, LT, C, and QB.

I don't support passing on CJ to reach for a need position (like Okoye at #4). However, I will continue to support trading down for extra picks. I actually hope that CJ is available because I think some teams will make some monster offers to trade up for him. And why would they trade with us instead of the Browns or Lions? Because they aren't considered serious threats to take him and why trade up higher than you have to? CJ at #4 is a steal and we could easily squeeze two more first day picks (either this year or next) and still stay in the top 10.
Well, I'm not a die hard, "We NEEEEEED Calvin" type. I just don't think Allen is going to get creative on draft day. If we are going to stay at #4 and Cj is still on the board when we go on the clock, how can Bruce Allen NOT take him?

[UMiamiBucFan]

Well, I'm not a die hard, "We NEEEEEED Calvin" type. I just don't think Allen is going to get creative on draft day. If we are going to stay at #4 and Cj is still on the board when we go on the clock, how can Bruce Allen NOT take him?
Because someone offers him a ridiculous trade?

I know its all wishful thinking, but I've always believed that if you get a deal to trade down, you do it.

[BucitObones]

Sorry UMBF. :o


Figurs is 5'11, 175 and has 74 career catches.
Hill is 6'0, 210 and 104 catches.
CJ is 6'4, 240 and is a total freak of nature.
With how many catches? You left that out. Not calling you out. Just asking.

[JudgeDredd]

One thing that's odd but true, Clayton did much better as the #1 WR than he ever has as the #2. With that said, maybe it's not entirely crazy to think of making him the #1 when JG is out. Also having CJ on the "lesser" CB might prove benificial in itself.

Just a random thought.

[JudgeDredd]

With how many catches? You left that out. Not calling you out. Just asking.
148 for CJ

[UMiamiBucFan]

One thing that's odd but true, Clayton did much better as the #1 WR than he ever has as the #2. With that said, maybe it's not entirely crazy to think of making him the #1 when JG is out. Also having CJ on the "lesser" CB might prove benificial in itself.

Just a random thought.
I really think Joey Galloway should never be a #1 receiver. I love his speed, but when your #1 target is a deep threat without solid hands, your offense is guaranteed to be inconsistent.

You know Joey Galloway only caught 44% of the balls thrown his way? While a lot of the blame can go to the QB, that's still far below the average for #1 receivers.